Difference between revisions of "Seiken Densetsu 3"

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Seiken Densetsu 3

Seiken Densetsu 3 is a Square-Enix (originally Square) Action RPG. It was never ported to English and is a japanese only release. It is also known to some people as Secret of Mana 2. There are 6 characters to choose from.

Characters

Angela

Angela is a magician, and is a good character for any normal playthrough. This is not the case in a speed run, as casting takes too much time and her physical damage is too low to be considered beneficial at any point. She would also require 3 stats to be useful for damage only (STR, INT , VIT).

Carlie

A.K.A. Charlotte in the Japanese version. She is the midget healer of the game. Does no damage and only serves to really protect the party. No real speed value what-so-ever.

Duran

The warrior of SD3. He is a tank, and has the potential for the strongest damage from a SINGLE hit. He survives and his later class changes can provide some functionality to your group. A good choice.

Looking into his class progression, Dark bring more to the table, and thus should go that way.

Hawk

The Ninja/Thief of SD3. He is sneaky, and has great utility and damage in the LATE game. Hawk is a good character, but contention leaves a lot up to debate with a speed run. There are two debates with Hawk. One has be solved (Hawk Vs Lise), but one is still on going... (Hawk vs Duran).

Extremely flexible for any class progression.

Kevin

The Broken Werewolf Monk. There is nothing more to say here. Two hits, lots of damage, good hp. He is a Speed run Staple!

Kevin should go DARK progression, for the fact of a higher STR stat. Pressure Point is bugged, and only applies STR UP. He gets his naturally when hit in werewolf form. The run should be ran almost exclusively at NIGHT TIME.

Lise

A.K.A. Reisz in the Japanese version. She functions as the female 'physical' dps. She also gets some good abilities. She is a necessary staple for her first class changes ability to lower boss stats. There was a debate on whether Hawk could fill this role but has come to a conclusion (Hawk Vs Lise).

Lise will be your toolbox, and this demands going dark. You can buy the Buff spells from her light change, in Byzel.

General Decisions and Why

Hawk vs Lise

When it comes to filling your slots, You are going to take Kevin period. His attack is too high. There was two spots to fill. This is one argument for the spot of 'tool box'.

The 'tool box' needs to be able to do damage, and help the party kill bosses as fast as possible. Thus, because Hawk and Lise are the only two characters with stat affect abilities, this was a spot for contention.

Hawk would bring double hits, jutsus for damage and stat reduction, along with some other generally useful spells. If you achieved Second Class Change, he could also bring Deadly Weapon (-1/5 max hp) to the table which just eats bosses. Lise would bring good single target hits, just plain stat reduction, and a place to dump spirit for use of healing items (poto oils).

By the simple idea, Hawk beats Lise. But in practice this is not the case.

1. Hawk's damage is generally lower than Lise's outside of bosses, and can be rather fluctuating in the early to mid game. Then after, Hawk takes the cake. This is only important for small bits of farming Luc to buy equipment, and some mandatory fights.

2. Hawk achieves his jutsu's at a much higher level than Lise. Lise can lower a boss time significantly by level 20, while it takes Hawk til level 26. There is no way that you could ever make up the lost time.

3. Lise can be used as a 'replacement' healer. Spirit controls her summons (if they were achieved), and thus the points are not wasted. She also has a good enough intelligence, that she does not generally need to increase it to survive magic. Hawk, if used this way, would require too many stats to be effective, and thus would suffer.

While, hawk wins only 1 of 3 arguements, it is clear to see that Lise is the superior choice for toolbox.

Hawk Vs Duran

To fill the last slot, you need some more DPS and some survival.

Hawk and Duran are the next two DPS'ers. With proper str manipulation (forcing the RNG to allow you to increase strength), both do awesome damage all along the game. The problem comes in when dealing with some bosses and creeps. Kevin no matter what will beat either of these two out.

1. Hawk, without buffing, generally hits for less than Duran. When buffed Hawk out preforms Duran only marginally for the early game, then greatly for the mid to late. The problem is, by mid to late, Kevin is dominating the DPS charts. This is due to the Attack Glitch that SHOULD be used. So the overall DPS doesn't matter to much as Kevin carries the team. There is no real way to decide either way, which makes this decision really hard.

2. Duran has greater survivability all throughout the game. Since the stats are bugged, Hawk doesn't benefit from DEX to dodge. He also has generally lower defense than Duran. This provides a big set of problems where damage can be a factor (See Bill & Ben). Thus Hawk loses here.

3. Hawk has by far better tools at his disposal. By going Light, he can achieve some quick nice strong spells (one with a HOLY element), and body change. This makes most creatures cake-walk at the cost of EXP and LUC. But when used right, the pros outweigh the cons. Going Dark, doesn't make sense as that would cause TWO of the same types (Stat lowers) in the party. This would break into conflict and lower the effectiveness of the party. The only thing Duran can achieve to help the party in a fight, is the ability to heal (covered by back-up healer Lise) or sabers. Sabers can be bought, so this only saves some change.

As you can see, there is no clean cut answer here.

It comes down to preference, and how much you really want to put into the game. Duran will carry you faster through the early game, while Hawk will help out your mid-to-late.

The current attempting speed run, uses Duran for survivability.

Why no casters?

All magic casting generally takes up too much time, for too little damage. There is only one occasion where magic saves time (about a minute). This is when the party fights Gorva on the Ghost ship (and possibly later if your story covers it). But since the light magic can be bought in coin form at the Black Market in Byzel, there is no need for either caster to actually cast.

When to buy Weapons and Armor

The game has a horrible problem, in that it is expecting a bit of grinding. This leads to extreme prices in weapons, and average price in armor. So the biggest question throughout the run is, "When should I buy a weapon, and when should I update my armor?"

Weapons - Weapons are generally bought at EVERY chance. There are a few points where this just is not economically feasible. 1. Do not buy weapons for Ghost Ship / Volcano Island Bucca. The weapons are good, but you will NOT have enough for armor and weapons (or even just weapons) by the time you get to the next part, and thus lose out on damage. This is a short section with relatively NO fighting. 2. Only give your 'secondary' (Hawk or Duran) ONE of the two upgrades before final weapons (non seeded). Kevin does not need the weapon as he will be glitched to 493 attack, and will not benefit. Lise, your tool box, does not do enough damage to matter much anymore.

Armor - Armor is generally avoided, because weapons are just too expensive to buy with armor all of the time. Also the benefits are not always needed. Times to buy armor are: 1. After getting off the Volcano Island. This gives you a LARGE defense increase, and without it Bill & Ben R2 or Golems x3 would be neigh impossible and work you over really bad. 2. **Not needed but recommended** Buy armor for DPS and Kevin right after doing your 2nd god beast. They will need the defense to run, lise is generally controlled in movement, and after casting is not really needed. 3. Before your final dungeon. You need this, it helps more than you can know.

What should I buy from Byzel?

Byzel has soo many goodies, its hard to know whats good and whats not.

The Good: Poto Oil, Claws, Scales, Light Coin.

The Bad: All other Coins.

The Okay: Mama Poto Oil, and the rest of the castable items.

The Bosses

All bosses have a basic strategy. Buff up, debuff (if you can), and then Kill. There are some differences down below.

Metal Huggar

The giant crab, is generally killable without healing items, and should be done so the initial item buying can be done at a smaller detour cost.

Gorva

This boss has a tendancy to float above the ship, where you cannot hit him. Using Light Coins bought from Byzel speeds up this fight. In fact, it can make him forget his pattern and drop down to be hit some more! Even better reason to USE those COINS.

Golems x3

This boss will test your fortitude and ability to dodge. The fight needs to start off with a successful dodge and then grouping of all three golems. This will lead to a QUICK victory or defeat, depending on how the AI feels.

Zable Fahr

It is suggested to have farmed a single Poto Claw for this boss, to increase the speed of killing all of the heads.

Final Boss

A moon coin can be used on this boss, as it will actually effectively lower the time in the fight. The rest of the bosses have too low of HP for the duration of Ancient to be worth the time. For Dark Lich, another papa poto claw can be farmed to abuse his general weakness.

Tips and Tricks

Kevin Glitch

It is easy to see that when in werewolf form Kevin (when hit) gets a bonus str up applied to him (on top of the extra 1/7th atk power boost).

To take it to the next level, after getting the Wind Drum that allows the summoning of flammie, you can glitch kevin to the maximum atk power of 493.

Recommended spot to glitch Kevin is just outside of Jadd in the forest. You can readily drop down and go back up without a hitch.

To perform the glitch, get into combat and have kevin transform. Then simply Wind drum out of the area, while he is still transformed. (This is why the forest is great. It has a wide screen with multiple enemies allowing the drum to be used in combat). The boost to atkpower you received will be stuck on Kevin until one of the following happens. 1. You change your weapon (forces an atkpower recalc) 2. You level up (forces an atkpower recalc)

Also, the atk is hard capped at ~430 until kevin gets hit where it will then jump up to 493. It is not possible to have him sit at 493 base, it requires the werewolf form.

Tangeant: The way the glitch is structured shows that the developers had noticed and tried to avoid the bug. By using the chibbikko hammer it is possible to retain kevin in his werewolf form with the boosted atkpower for one screen from a fight. All exits onto the ocean (Booshkaboo) all have a screen of no combat in front of them, forcing the glitch to end. While using the chibbikko hammer or some clever tactics allows it to work with the Wind drum, it is obvious the developers did not see this being a problem.

Manipulating Stats

Most of a run requires getting maxed stats in a few key stats, it is imperative that one manipulate the growths.

All stats can be manipulated to allow you to increase them up to, but not beyond, their cap for the respective class. This is theorized to be apart of Seiken Densetsu 3's buggy behavior.

To manipulate a stat is generally handy to do the following... 1. Fail putting in a stat on purpose (level up, be unable to get str so drop it into VIT), then after a bit (time not confirmed) reset the game and try again. Reset can be by party death or the reset button. The game's RNG should be messed with significantly and the game should have 'forgotten' your last stat point allocation allowing you to put it into the stat you wanted (hence str). This method is not sure-fire as the game seems to remember a long string of stat allocations and gets harder to work with as you increase only one stat. It is thus suggested that you purposefully accept 1 off stat per 3 increases. After the 4th point it is neigh impossible to get the same stat again. 2. Buggy behavior begets buggy behavior --- By using other bugs in the game, it is believed to make increasing one stat earlier. By delaying level ups (leaving the screen before they happen, or etc...) the RNG gets thrown off and allows for the stat to be increased. This is easy to see and manipulate early, but can be tricky in some spots dependent on the game's state.

Run In Progress

This game has a run in progress! It is of the Kevin/Charlotte storyline. You can find it here for discussion. The youtube progress of the run can be found here.